7) Finding summer jobs

For those who have work experience, it will probably be a bit easier to find summer jobs. On both the law and business sides, they can be hard to find. Companies actually lose money on interns; the cost of hiring, training, and paying us will be much higher than the productivity we generate. Keep this in mind—the purpose of these programs is to test and groom students for future full-time positions. This can throw a big wrench into prospects for those doing the four-year program, with so much school left to complete. I tried to gloss this fact over, but employers often see right through this. Why hire me instead of a straight MBA who would graduate 8 months later?

I had two years of work experience in wealth management administration and equities trading before coming into the program. I also have the CSC and CPH securities designations. This, combined with fairly high MBA grades secured me plenty of interviews for the capital markets jobs. I was really discouraged in that I wasn’t extended any offers my first summer. The frustrating bit is that a lot of these jobs will go to undergrads who specialize in finance, and have three years of modeling and DCF calculations under their belt. When I was interviewing, I had only had 2 weeks of finance, since it’s taught in second semester of the standard first year timetable. I regret not taking finance in my first semester and not waiving Economics (my advice is to do so if you took undergrad courses in micro and macro). Just because a course is at the MBA level does NOT mean that it’s harder than undergraduate courses—it may in fact be easier. MBA courses attempt to give you a broad-level understanding of business topics in order to train managers, rather than number-crunching junior analysts. MBA courses tend to be less quantitative than BBA courses.

Capital markets and consulting positions are the most prized summer gigs—and highly competitive. The banks/consulting firms receive massive quantities of resumes, and the selection process is highly subjective. My resume was chosen for some jobs in my first year, and not in my second year (despite more schooling, better marks, and more experience). Now, this could be because a recruiter remembered me and thought “oh, this guy was terrible” but lot of firms have different people doing the recruiting year over year, and I’m convinced there’s a high level of arbitrariness involved.

Applications are done on Schulich’s Careerquest. Polish up your resume over the Christmas holidays, but wait until your first semester grades are posted until you apply. On the Osgoode side, applications are done on LegalEase (OLE). Osgoode grades come out a lot later (and well after most other Ontario schools) and thus 1Ls have only a few days to apply. Have your cover letter and resume ready for when grades are released. Not to discourage people, but 1L jobs are terribly difficult to get. Law firms place a lot of emphasis on grades; the unofficial word on the street is that you should have 2 As (out of three courses: Contracts, Torts, and Criminal) to be considered. 2L recruitment, also known as On Campus Interviews (OCIs) is a much bigger process. It’s a very regimented affair, with representatives from the firms coming up for a sort-of speed dating session. I go through this process in the fall. 1L grades matter a great deal. Law resumes are two pages, business resumes are one. Cover letters shouldn’t be longer than a page.

There are two approaches for applying to jobs (this section applies more to business gigs): first is what I call the shotgun approach. Apply to everything that even remotely matches your interests and/or skill set, which a generic resume and cover letter. I somewhat tailor my cover letters to suit the business unit, but generally simply swap the words “TD Securities” for “RBC Capital Markets” and then to “CIBC World Markets” etc. The second specific approach is to apply only for the particular roles you think you’re best qualified for, showing the employer that you’re specifically dedicated to one aspect of the business. While the career advisors typically tend to favour the latter approach, I’m convinced that the shotgun is the way to go. Some undergrad was once astonished that I had interviewed with TD for both investment banking and sales & trading. “You’re not supposed to do that,” he said. “It shows them that you have no direction.”

I think this is bollocks, for two reasons. First, resumes are evaluated by different people in different lines of business. None of my TD interviewers had any idea that I interviewed with their colleagues. Banks are behemoths: the only individual I saw more than once over my two years of applications was the secretary at TD Securities reception. Second, when applying to my former employer (one of the big five banks) I tended to put a bit more effort into how I fit in so well with that bank’s vision and that I’d love to return in a new capacity, dropping names along the way. These letters were masterpieces, and got me nowhere. In fact, my former employer was the only big 5 bank NOT to interview me in capital markets, despite my contacts and glowing reference letters. Interviewing is a high-stakes game of musical chairs, where many are called and few are chosen.

Work experience matters a bit more in business than it does in law, but grades are still very important for the coveted positions. Application deadlines are in the early days of January and interviews begin soon after. Capital Markets interviews come first, then consulting, then other banking/marketing jobs. When your resume is selected, many firms with come to the Career Development Office and interview you for a first round, otherwise invite you to their offices downtown. Some will host a dinner or cocktail party in advance. The reasoning is that they want to observe you and get to know you in a less formal setting prior to interviewing you, but personally, I find it irritating having to schedule dinners and soirees downtown in addition to interviews and your regular coursework. Thankfully, the first two weeks of January (interview-mania time) are dedicated to Ethical Lawyering, Osgoode’s only non-substantive/fluffy class. I hardly went to the lectures, and put very little effort into the class. You have to pick your battles sometimes: I found a summer job to be more important than learning how to be ethical….

During interview-mania, students from out of town are at a real disadvantage—they can miss up to two weeks of classes. I used to be very reserved and professional during these “pre-interviews,” refusing anything alcoholic and keeping the conversation focused on the job. For first rounds, your interviewers are often junior/mid level people. Most firms try to send employees who’ve graduated from your same school.  Read your interviewers. If they’re ordering beers, do the same. You want to seem professional, but also be able to create personal rapport with these people. They want to hire candidates that they get along with, and with whom they can go for a beer with after work. Obviously, don’t get drunk but do let loose a bit. Interviews are usually the next day, and that’s your chance to come off as professional as possible.

Capital markets (I-banking, S+T, Counterparty Credit) interviewers will grill you on market fundamentals, bond yield curves, debt/equity financing, valuation metrics, and the like. Study in advance. I prepared a highlighted cheatsheet with basic calculations and terms. Consulting “case” interviews are a strange kind of simulation experience, where you’re presented with a business problem, and you’ll have to ask pertinent questions of your interviewer and work towards a business strategy for a fictional company. I’ve heard of oddball questions being asked such as… “how many gumballs would fit into a Boeing 747?” What matters is your thought process in coming to your solution. A multitude of guides are available to prepare for case interviews. Schulich’s Career Development people are quite helpful—they’ll help with resume writing and mock interviews. Callbacks are fast. If you haven’t heard anything by a few days later, you’re probably out of luck. Some firms will send a “thanks for coming” email weeks later. Some will call. This year I got a “no” call an hour after I left the interview. Guess I really blew that one.

Once you’re past the first round, you’ll be interviewed in the second round by the “bigger guns:” higher-level managers and VPs. This may be a “speed dating” series of 30 minute interviews with four managers, or a two-on-one interview. Sometimes they’ll try to trip you up by throwing you oddball questions. Scotia once asked me: “what’s 99 times 99?” Whoa, right out of left field. A VP at TD asked me what makes a Bermudan option different from a North American/European option. I went blank, and pictured a hula dancer with coconut shells trading options for pineapples. I used this story at a subsequent TD interview, got a hearty laugh, and sailed through to the second round. A sense of humor differentiates you from the others. Try to know the firm well, and know what makes it different from its competitors. Know the name of the CEO, the key executives, recent acquisitions/events, and the company’s share price history. Try to persuade interviewers why you would fit well within the firm’s culture. This can be tricky: among the big five banks, for example, there’s not really a huge difference. If you’re participated in CIBC’s Run for the Cure, that would be a great talking point. It sounds a lot less cheesy than “I bank with TD and I love how you’re open on Sundays.” In my experience, I’ve never really worked for a company in which a distinct corporate culture permeates throughout the organization. The culture, in my opinion, really depends on the business unit and your particular co-workers. This is debatable, of course.

If you’ve made it to the second round, all candidates are assumed to be qualified on paper for the job. Don’t take it personally if you’re turned down. Sometimes, you’ll slip up on a question, despite your preparation. Sometimes other candidates will create better rapport with interviewers. It’s a tough knock to make it all the way to the end, and get turned down, but it will happen. Take your knocks, but also any feedback that is provided (you usually have to ask and sometimes you’ll get a rather flippant response), and move on to the next.

If nothing materializes, there’s no shame in working a serving job or something your first summer (that’s what I did), or going on exchange. Osgoode has short-term summer exchanges (for credit) to schools in Germany, Israel, and the ever-popular one to Prato, Italy. If you’re starting at Osgoode, I’ll be honest: the 1L summer job situation is bleak. Only the top students get in. I didn’t even apply. This is a big reason why the three-year program is so popular.

There aren’t really opportunities exclusive to JD/MBA students. There are a scant few that are targeted to us, like the McCarthy Tetreau-sponsored internships unveiled this year. My good JD/MBA friend got one; he’s working for RBC this summer. He enjoys it, but the internships pay a mere $10k stipend for a three month stint. That’s not terrible, but 1L and OCI law jobs pay much better, as do MBA jobs. It looks great on a resume, though, and gives you a month to enjoy your summer or go on one of Osgoode’s summer exchanges.

8) The learning experience and quality of the schools

I’m a bit of an odd duck: I prefer business and finance to law, but I MUCH preferred law school over business school. It sounds strange, but I prefer the structure and substance of legal studies and find I get much more out of them. Law school is an incredible challenge and your learning curve is exponential. As for the MBA, I found many of the introductory courses too basic. My advice is to try to waive as many of these as you can so that you’re able to focus on your area of interest.

All in all, the degree keeps the doors open in both business and law, and gives you an integrated perspective as to the interplay between the two disciplines. MBA school will be easier (many JD/MBAs get straight As at Schulich), more group-focused, but more “fluffy.” Since I have experience in business and killer business grades, I focused on MBA recruiting—this summer I’m working for one of the big banks. For me, it’s an ideal combo. I only wish my Osgoode grades were better and my intro Schulich courses more substantive.

Another important point: if you’re fresh out of undergrad, you’ll be taking classes with 20-30-something professionals, but don’t let this unnerve you—you’ll still in study mode while some of these people haven’t been in school for years and have completely forgotten how to sit exams and write papers (as for the latter, many never learned in the first place!). Your first year cohort will be comprised of Engineers, Science and IT people, some of whom are doing the MBA to move up the ranks within their profession, while others are seeking a full career switch. Many are ESL and bear the difficult task of adjusting to Canadian culture. If you have any experience/education in business, economics or even reading Globeinvestor, you’re likely already more familiar with the material than your colleagues. Schulich offers the “Flying Start” a week-long intensive program prior to the MBA. It costs quite a bit; and in my opinion is unnecessary. You’ll learn in your classes; that’s why you’re paying $30k per year. Enjoy the week of summer and apply yourself during the year. I find the whole “school before school” courses (I call it pre-school) to be a cash-grab. Of course, I didn’t take LSAT prep courses either.

9) Job prospects for JD/MBAs

Most JD/MBAs are aiming for Bay Street, in some capacity. I have experience in trading and wealth management, so the MBA was a natural fit. Don’t worry about having a clear vision—very few people do, even at my stage in the program. Your career path will develop over time, and the best you can do is make educated choices and try to enjoy the somewhat bumpy ride.

Employers are becoming more familiar with the program, especially on the law side. Most are impressed—it’s a pretty powerhouse degree. There’s also quite a tight-knit network among those in our program. On the other hand, some interviewers may question your dedication to their particular field of work. Loyalty is prized, especially among law firms. This seems rather narrow-minded to me: simply because one is more educated and has a quite variety of prospects, it seems rather short-sighted to turn them away. After all, a top-notch lawyer will also have other prospects among other firms. Thankfully, most employers realize this, and that as an MBA you’ll have greater insight into their business strategy, not only their legal concerns. All in all, I’d say we have a definite edge going up for Bay St jobs, but the program itself won’t make up for poor grades. When applying to business jobs, I market myself and tailor my resume toward business, and change the acronym to MBA/JD, as if to show that the law degree was kind-of tacked-on. It’s a bit silly, but there you have it.

A common trajectory for JD/MBAs is articling, working as a legal associate, then moving either in-house with a big corporation or moving into an executive, non-law position. Some will stay in law their entire careers. The degree really is a long-term play; despite your extra year (or extra two years versus a straight MBA) you’re likely not going to earn a higher salary than a straight-MBA or straight-JD coming right out of school. While a few will move straight into business (if offered a fancy capital markets, consulting gig, etc) almost all will sit the bar and become lawyers (otherwise why go to law school?). The great thing about the degree is its malleability: it opens many doors, rather than specific ones. That’s why I call it the most conservative of all degrees. I’m pretty sure the unemployment rate among our alumni is pretty much nil. If you’re an ambitious type, and most of us are, the degree will give you a diverse skill set and credibility to work your way quickly up the ranks.

10) Final thoughts

I hope this information has been useful. I’ll leave you with one thought that I’ve found consistently true, as highlighted by my experiences above. Your journey through Osgoode/Schulich will be mired in stress and uncertainty. Grades/hiring decisions that seem to make or break your career will take you by surprise, and will often be unexpected or unfair. Law exams themselves are a virtual case study on arbitrary grading; sometimes a difference between full letter grades is a mere sentence, term, or punctuation mark (remember the infamous Rogers case that hinged on the placing of a comma?) that you might not think is relevant. The whole process is far from “fair” and sometimes you’ll scratch your head when you learn which of your classmates got the best grades, scholarships and job offers. There is a high degree of arbitrariness and subjectivity in all this–since most of us at this level are vehement overachievers, we often try to seek an explanation as to where we went wrong, and how to improve. Sometimes, there’s simply no answer.  Recall my OGS story: the same application, seen by a different pair of eyes, made a $10,000 difference. The best you can do is apply yourself, keep all doors open, and always look out for the next opportunity.